Liv Ullmann: The Hollywood Interview

Actress/filmmaker Liv Ullmann.


LIV ULLMANN: KEEPING THE FAITH
By
Alex Simon

Editor’s Note: The following article appeared in the February 2001 issue of Venice Magazine.

One of the international screen's most recognizable, and revered, faces, Liv Ullmann first gained fame as the star of Swedish auteur Ingmar Bergman's films of the 1960's. Born in Tokyo December 16, 1939 to Norwegian parents, Ullmann's father was an engineer, who moved the family initially to Canada after the outbreak of WW II, then briefly to New York, where her father died. Returning to Norway with her mother, Ullmann joined a theatrical troupe after finishing high school, soon gaining prominence on the Oslo stage and in Norwegian films. Her association with Bergman began with the 1966 Persona, followed by Hour of the Wolf (1968), Shame (1968), The Passion of Anna (1969), Cries and Whispers (1972), Scenes From a Marriage (1973), Face to Face (1976) and Autumn Sonata (1978). Ullmann and Bergman shared an off-screen relationship as well, which produced a daughter. Ullmann wrote about Bergman and her life in the riveting autobiography "Changing," published in 1977.

After her Oscar-nominated role in Jan Troell's The Emigrants (1971), Hollywood attempted to cash in on Ullmann's star power with films that weren't worthy of the luminous actress' talents: Lost Horizon (1973), 40 Carats (1973), and Zandy's Bride (1974) all did poorly with audiences and critics alike. Needless to say, Miss Ullmann chose to concentrate on films in Europe from then on. Just a few of her other noteworthy films include The Emigrants (1971), A Bridge Too Far (1977), Dangerous Moves (1985), and Gaby-A True Story (1988). She made her directorial debut with Sofie (1992), the Bergmanesque story of a young Jewish girl in 19th century
Denmark struggling to break with her family's strict traditions. It was hailed by critics around the world for Ullmann's work as a distinctive new voice in the filmmaking world.

Ullmann brings credence to that praise again with her fourth feature film as a director, Faithless. Written by Ingmar Bergman, the story revolves around a writer named "Bergman" (veteran actor Erland Josephson) working out a new screenplay with his imaginary muse (Lena Endre, brilliant), which then plays out before our eyes: the Bergmanesque story of a self-destructive love affair, and the destruction of all the lives involved in it. A powerful, bleak, depressing, but ultimately redemptive tale, Faithless clearly shows that Liv Ullmann is every bit as gifted behind the camera as she is in front of it. The Samuel Goldwyn Films is currently playing in selected L.A. theaters.

In person, Liv Ullmann is every bit as charming and incandescent as she appears on -screen. A legendary actor once commented: "Anyone who meets Liv can't help but fall in love with her a little." Hold on to your hearts, and read on...

This film dealt with a lot of the themes that Bergman has addressed in other films, especially the doomed nature of most relationships between men and women. Do you share that viewpoint, that most relationships are doomed to fail?
Liv Ullmann: Yes, I would include all kinds of relationships in that statement: men and women; men and men; women and women; children and parents. The choices are there and if we don't look at those choices, most of them are doomed to fail, even if the people stay together. If you don't take the responsibility for the other person, if never think whatever you do in life also involves them, pretty soon there's going to be a barrier, or you divorce that barrier, then you continue to do the same thing in your next relationship if you don't learn why this didn't work. It doesn't fail because the other person is terrible, but because you don't look at what you've done wrong or what you allow the other person to continually do to you. I think it was easier in the past, because we had more values then. We believed that if we did something (bad), there were consequences because there was a God, or because of moral values, or because we lived more under the authority of our parents. We have lost most of those values. I think the danger today is that even children don't have values about life anyone, that life is incredible and that each human being is unique. We get those things from films, from TV, from books, from the media. You watch the Presidential election, and we never get to see them as people. We've gotten so used to listening to lies. People hide their lies in sound bites, and everyone buys the sound bites. That's why I think relationships are going to be tough until we go back to having values again.

I loved the device of the story unfolding between the writer and his muse.
I said to all the actors 'You will notice throughout the whole film, everything that happens in the workroom between the writer and his muse, the muse is always trying to get the women's perspective.' She always says things like "Oh, but then they lived well, and were happy," to which the writer counters with "Yes, for a while. But then..." and it goes darker and darker. In the end she finally just leaves, because she doesn't want to be part of that story anymore. That's my interpretation of it, anyway, and the actors agreed with me, so that's how we played it. I don't know if that was Ingmar's intention, because we never discussed the script after I got it. He was interested, just like the writer in the film, in a woman's vision and experience. He said "That's what's exciting to me, that I don't know what you're going to make of it." We never talked about the film.

Apparently the story is based on an event in Bergman's life, long ago.
Yes, although it's not about me. (laughs) Because people have asked me about that. It happened before we knew each other. The entire story isn't based on fact, just part of it, which he explored in a book he wrote. He went to Paris with this woman, and she divorced her husband. They had a baby together, and then he left her and the baby for a younger woman. This is no secret. He's written about it. What's interesting is the way young people, under 50, have reacted to the film, particularly young men who are children of divorce themselves. They've come up to me and said "This is what happened to me, and I will never let this happen to my children." Ingmar loved his children, but became a father at a time when men weren't very hands-on with their kids.

The character of David, the filmmaker, is certainly the least-sympathetic, and an unflattering, warts-and-all self-portrait by Bergman.
You know, some people are great at showing in their books, films and art that they are unsympathetic, but maybe they have less self-awareness of that in life. And some people in life are milder and nicer and don't even come up with that in their creations. The key is to have that self-forgiveness in life, and not just in your work. Bergman isn't able to forgive himself for some of the things he's done in the past, which is why, I think, he's able to forgive the character of David in this.

By the end of the film, even though so many horrific things had happened, I still felt hopeful.
I felt hopeful because of the child. I think she will overcome and use all that experience in a positive way. She had all these secrets from these grown-ups that she has to carry. I think she, and we the audience, do realize that what these people did was wrong, and we take it as a warning, although, hopefully, our lives will never be quite that dramatic! (laughs) You will ruin something within yourself if you are not careful about the people that you're bound to. You should love with enormous respect and have respect for love.

Did Bergman ever want to direct this himself?
No, he gave it to me, and I thought it was wonderful, but so personal! I told him, 'You should direct this yourself.' He didn't want to. I think of all the great things he's written, this is the best. It's like Shakespeare. The dialogue is so well-thought out.

Was it difficult conceptualizing how to film this, because it seems like a play in many ways.
Very difficult. It's really a series of monologues. I spent over a year working on it, before I knew how I wanted to do it. Sometimes I wasn't even able to explain to the actors how I saw it, because it was so complicated. They really put their trust in me, and helped me to make it work.

Let's talk about your background. You were born in Tokyo.
Yes. My father was a civil engineer, then when the war broke out, we managed to escape to Toronto, Canada, where there was a Norwegian and English training camp for pilots, which they called "little Norway." My father was a flight instructor there, and died there. Amongst his pupils was Thor Heyerdahl, who became a famous explorer (his exploits were documented in the Oscar-winning film Kon-Tiki, 1951). I met him years later, and he said how much everyone loved my father, because he was the only officer who would talk to us like we were real people. That was wonderful, because I have no memory of my father.

How did your father die?
I don't really know. My mother said he walked into the propeller of an airplane, but I don't believe that, because he lived after that. My mother was prone to exaggeration. All I know is that he died during an operation to his head.

So you were raised by your mother?
Yes, and I have a sister who's two years older. We went to the north of Norway. I left home when I was 17, and joined a theater company.

How did you fall in love with theater, and acting in general?
I always did theater when I was in school. I was shy, like most actors will tell you. I also loved writing, wrote plays, and did all those things. My mother said "Well, if you really want that, you have to get educated." So I went to London, and studied at the Webber- Douglass Academy of Dramatic Arts for a year. I do regret that I never finished my formal education, and I was very happy when my daughter graduated from university. My first part on stage was as Anne Frank in "The Diary of Anne Frank." Then I did a lot of Norwegian and Swedish films. When I was 25, that's when I did Persona for Ingmar, and that's when I was really launched in films, but I always continued to do theater.

Tell us about the first time you met Bergman.
He had seen some of my films, and I met him, like something out of a Hollywood movie magazine, when I was on the street, walking with Bibi Andersson. He said "I want you to be in my next film." (laughs) I thought 'Oh God, this is just like in the movies!' (laughs) He was originally going to make a film where I was going to have a small part, then he got sick and the film was canceled. To cheer ourselves up, Bibi and I took our husbands, and went on a holiday in Poland and Czechoslovakia. When we got to Czechoslovakia, the embassy found us, and relayed a message from Ingmar. It seems he wanted us back straight away, that while he was in hospital, he'd been looking at pictures of Bibi and me, and came up with the idea for Persona, and wrote the script. We came home, and he started the movie about two weeks after. So there was no audition, nothing. He was just inspired by these photos. When we did it, we thought that nobody would see it, because it was so strange! (laughs) It was a wonderful experience doing it, though. Bibi was my best girlfriend and I fell in love with Ingmar.

What was your brief stay in Hollywood like?
It was a lot of fun, actually, because I had something to go back to. When I first came here, with The Emigrants, everyone was shocked to see me a happy, smiling 31 year-old, because they all saw me as this heavy, "Bergman person." (laughs) So I had my pick of projects, and basically I just made a lot of bad choices that I had fun doing. Then I went back home and did Scenes From a Marriage. I also did a lot of traveling, a lot of theater, wrote two books and raised a daughter, so I never felt like I "bombed out." It was just another learning step. If I had been really famous in Hollywood, my life would have ended a long time ago. I'm 60 years old now. I would probably be very sad and face-lifted, and all that. I probably wouldn't have been a director. Instead, I've had this very rich life. So I'm really lucky that I didn't make it big here, if you think about it.

Everything happens for a reason.
Absolutely. Sometimes a sad event can be your greatest visitor. Just like in Faithless, it's hard to draw a lesson from a success.

What was it like working with Ingrid Bergman on Autumn Sonata?
It was amazing! She was a real lady, very tough. She made me proud to be a woman when I was around her. She was the first and only person I ever saw talk back to Bergman. (laughs) He hated working with her because he wasn't used to working that way. He also got a great performance out of her through their conflict. She would say her lines, but her face would say something else. She was incredible. There was a real bond between us. We shared a lot of experiences in our lives, but she wore it much more gracefully than I. I tend to whine a little bit. (laughs) She would tell all these horrible stories of what she went through, especially when she was ostracized in America, and she never cried, never complained. She said "I never look back. I always go ahead."

It reminds me of that famous quote by Satchel Paige: "Don't look back. They might be gaining on you."
Wow, that's great! I never heard that before. That's certainly how Ingrid Bergman lived. She was quite ill, you know, when we were doing that film, and still she never complained, never talked about her illness. She was very brave, very courageous, and would do things physically that, I found out later, were impossible to do if you had the kind of cancer she had. She was always the first on the set in the morning, and the last to leave. We used to go out in the evenings in our actress' club. Ingrid was the first person we invited from outside the group to join us. She stood up in the middle of the dinner, raised her glass and said "I had such a rich life, but I never had girlfriends like this." That was so moving. We still talk about her a lot.

Is directing something you always wanted to do?
No, I came to it later. I did a short film in an anthology called Loving, which we made in Canada. And I thought, 'This is really great!' It was about two old people, with no dialogue. I never thought about it after. I came back to it because I was asked to make a script for a Danish production, and they asked me to direct it. My first week of doing that, I knew that I had found my true calling, because I was already starting to get tired of acting. There are so many bad directors out there! (laughs)

Do you have any desire to act at all anymore?
No, not at all. The only drawback is that it takes a couple years to do a film. As an actress, you can just do it, and leave. And at my age, now time is of the essence. It's so rewarding, though, to be on the other side of the camera and watching another actor just bloom before your eyes.

Do you think acting is a good training ground for future directors, since they can empathize more?
Yes, sure. I don't think all actors can direct, but then there's a lot of directors who can't direct. (laughs) If they can, they can be really good because of that empathy.

Who are some of the other directors, in addition to Bergman, who've influenced you?
Jan Troell is my favorite film director because he has the combination of being a cinematographer and a director. He doesn't say much, but with his camera he makes poetry. He gives you a lot of freedom, then he picks what he wants. He's so dedicated, such an incredible human being. He has no ambition, except to make the very best films he can. That's why he hasn't done much here, I think. He still works a lot in Sweden. It's funny, a lot of the reviews in Sweden have called Faithless a film influenced by Jan Troell! (laughs) However, I will say that I have learned more from the handful of bad directors that I've worked with than anything else.

What advice would you have for first-time directors?
You have to believe in yourself. Don't let others influence that belief. There will be people around you who try to put you down, to give themselves power, don't listen to them. Really trust yourself. The most important people to have on your side are the actors. You must get them on your side, because if they're not, it's going to be impossible. Also get the best cinematographer you can. Don't get someone who's going to try and walk on top of you. The first thing they do when you're a debutante, which I've been through, is that they try to sit on you. Just remember to show the actors that they are the most important people there. Allow them to create, not to be blueprints of what you thought up at home. Admire them and be the best audience and the best lover they ever had, and you can't fail.